EP10 - Transitioning from a Shopping Cart to a Shopping Cart

EP11 Transitioning from a shopping cart to a shopping cart

 [00:00:00]Corby: So with me today is Lauren Steinberg, who I actually had the pleasure of meeting, I think for the first time in a bathing suit at a pool in Las Vegas, if I recall, at a conference that we were both there  for from a digital marketing perspective. [00:01:00] And you know, Lauren had just, everybody swarming around her because she was the person to talk to about digital transformation, about digital product development, and we got to know each other, and I really wanted to speak with her on my podcast. So Lauren, thanks for joining me today.

Lauren: Yeah. You had to mention the bathing suit. Every podcast that I'm on starts that way. I mean, everyone. Yeah.

Corby: Well, you're my first interview to start that way, so…

Lauren: Awesome.

Corby: So thanks for joining me today. Nw you are, Yyu're working at an organization going through some massive transformation right now, Loblaws. Why don't you tell everyone what your role is and what you're currently focused on?

Lauren: Yeah, for sure. So, , I am the VP of product UX and digital marketing at Loblaw Digital. For those that aren't familiar with Loblaw, Loblaw is the largest retailer in Canada, with 2,600 locations across the country. We operate in multiple verticals, including grocery, pharmacy, [00:02:00] beauty, apparel, banking, , really there's very few verticals we don't touch.

Me specifically, I oversee primarily the product function and developing digital experiences, both commerce and non commerce, to reflect our brands and to bring them online so that customers across the country have access to our wide suite of products and services. I've been here about seven years and my portfolio has evolved through those years. I joined this team when we were roughly seven people. I think we're now at about 500. At the time, we had zero eCommerce platforms, now, in 2019, we actually delivered a billion dollars in annual revenue. A huge milestone for us. Obviously this year, with the growth of e-commerce, that number has dramatically accelerated.

, but, you know, I think our team has done an excellent job. I'm being prepared for a lot of that. I mean, we've, you know, we've had to invest in many different areas through the years to make sure that we had the right capabilities to scale [00:03:00] up. I don't think we ever anticipated scaling this quickly. , but it's been certainly a hell of a ride so far.

Corby: So I saw a stat earlier today while I was surfing the interweb, and it talked about the U S e-commerce penetration, as you mentioned, from zero to a billion. And what really stood out for me was it took 10 years. For penetration to go up about 11% of total commerce in the U S and in the last six weeks, it's gone up 16% on top of that.

So I understand , , the scale and size and effort it takes to move the needle when you're trying to move the needle. However, right now we're finding  it's the opposite. It's actually the customer and the consumer who's driving the organization. To move the needle because the demand has essentially outstripped the supply.

So do you see that as one of those major contributing factors to being able to ramp up so quickly.

Lauren: Yeah. And I think for us it's very unique in that we're, you know, considered in many of our [00:04:00] verticals and essential service. , and so a lot of. You know, pre COBIT, I would say a lot of our offerings that were in the eCommerce space, that our online grocery service, , R E refill for prescriptions. Those were things that we designed and built for early adopters for people who had a high propensity to adopt digital and eCommerce products and services.

Now, what we're finding is those are an absolute necessity to many, uh, and, and we're having to rethink how we. Design those in the first place. In many cases we, you know, I remember my mom called me week two of coven and she, you know, said, you know, I want to place an online order for my groceries. I don't, I don't get it.

I don't understand it. And that was a huge awakening for me to say, well, we built these people who get it, who can very quickly get it, and now we really need to rethink that experience to make sure that everyone has access, especially in this space that we operate in.

Corby: One of the rules of my team. If you listen to my first podcast episode, I always say [00:05:00] say it as simple so that your grandmother would understand it. And one of the real world implementations of that is I've always said, when you build a digital product, when you build an app, for instance. Have you ever had an app that you've had to download and read an instruction manual?

No. And so the reality is exactly like you said, we need to make sure that the products we're designing and building are for everyone. So, so maybe talk a little bit about that. When you think about, you know, building digital products that your customers truly love, what's the secret sauce? How do you do that so that you can scale from zero 

to a billion in such a quick timeframe? 

Lauren: Yeah. I think for us there's probably, well, there's probably many things, but the two that I kind of liked to always go back to, , one is, you know, don't outsource your knowledge. , we've done a really great job of building in house expertise to really understand our customer, whether that's , having a call center team embedded in our digital experiences.

So we hear the feedback that's coming through. , our [00:06:00] 1-800-NUMBERS. , a research team in house that actually spends time with our customers every single day and brings people in that are building the products to listen to those sessions, take part in those sessions, uh, to do exercises with them.

 an in house analytics team, we really don't believe in, you know, letting someone else tell us what our customers want. We believe that that's gotta be a core part of how we design, build, and ship. , you know, they're part of every step of the process and we really can't build a great. Great products if they're not involved in that.

And probably the second one, especially, you know, for me, this one I think is the most important, is like, don't fall in love with your product. Don't fall in love with your idea. I think we often, you know, as product leaders, as marketing leaders, we think our ideas are the best. And you know, sometimes they are of course.

, but we've gotta be open to changing and tossing what, you know, didn't work out the window. And I think when we. Interact with our, our enterprise partners, people across the level of organization who really know their customer. But [00:07:00] the world is changing, right? The model is changing. , we really try to, to, to work with them to identify the outcomes versus the features.

, and so that's really how we set our goals. That's really how we orient our teams to really focus on not what we think is going to work, but to easily adapt, experiment, and throw out the stuff that just doesn't.

Corby: I always say to my team, you're not the customer. I'm not the customer. My boss isn't the customer. The CEO for sure is not the customer of pretty much any company except for the Remington guy back in the day who bought the company because he liked the product so much.  So talk to me a little bit about when you put that hat on.

[00:08:00] And you've got to get to the hard decision of, you know, as a team, you had a strategy, you executed, you built something, and then, Oh, it's just not working. What's, what's one of the hardest decisions you've had to make in your role to think about, , cutting something, getting rid of something, stopping something because you weren't the customer and you unfortunately made the mistake and assumption that you were.

Lauren: . I think my favorite story, and you may have heard me. , share this one on a stage, , at some point in our journey together. But, , we developed a feature within our PC express app called shopping scan. And this was something actually that we were seeing. You know, you see a lot of headlines. This company is doing that, that comes in that that actually forces you to take the rabbit hole as well, because you think just because the other guy's doing it, that you should be doing it.

In many cases, they too, don't know what they're doing. , but you know, we. We developed , this feature that allowed customers using their own device, navigate our stores, scan the items as they walked through, and then with a single barcode [00:09:00] checkout at the self-serve kiosk and beyond their way. So instead of, you know, a hundred item order scanning and waiting in line, et cetera, you could be out of there fairly quickly using your handheld device.

. We launched that in a Loblaws downtown location with a, ,  very young urban customer. We thought it would take off. Everyone was so excited. Everyone worked so hard on it. They love the product, the PM on it. He was just like totally obsessed with it. And. , no one really used it.

It wasn't something that people wanted. It wasn't something that they were, you know, we , we built a huge marketing campaign around it. , that was around save time, skip the line. Amazing. And people didn't go for it. , and you know, they were pretty devastated. And I think. What we learned from some research that we conducted afterwards, , going into a no-frills location where the customer is far more a price savvy.

They're, , you know, they're looking for deals a little bit more often, but it's actually a customer. In some cases. The mindset is. , I'm trying to make my buck go a little bit farther. , [00:10:00] and talking to some of those customers, we learned that one of their biggest pain point was , loading all their groceries onto , that belt, that checkout belt.

, and when they got through that, , the total of , the order was a little bit too much. They couldn't afford it. , and so they had to take something off that conveyor belt. And just the , the feeling of embarrassment that they experienced through that. , and that they were choosing a competitor in many cases because they offered that product.

And what we learned was that the product itself, the feature was actually a very interesting feature. We just sold it to the wrong customer and the wrong tagline on it. And in fact, it was meant for this audience, this mindset of a customer. , not necessarily the store, but that mindset.

, , and the, the value proposition was keep track of your bill, not save time. And for us, it's really important. You know, what we learned through that experience, and this was before we built our own research team, was that's got to be part of the upfront work, right? . So it really helps you kind of get through that,  early, you know, you don't maybe get too obsessed with what you're trying to [00:11:00] build because you understand actually who you're building for a little bit better.

You understand the real life problem that it actually solves, and you just feel, you just feel better as a PM. People want to build products that really solve, , a need, you know? And I think that that was a tremendous learning for us.

Corby: You hit two really interesting points there. The first that I think we always tell ourselves, which is know your customer, right? Know who you're building for. But what was really interesting that I heard you say was, you know, we always talk about you don't have to be first, right? Copying others, flattery.

, you can take other people's ideas , and try and do it better. But you kinda need to make sure that doing better isn't really all of the things you need to think about. You have to make sure that what the other guy did before you actually worked for their customers. And maybe in this circumstance there was a, a bit of learning on both sides.

But it brings me to,  the fundamental challenge and maybe change that your organization has been [00:12:00] going through. You talked about food on the conveyor belt. Which is a very physical, tactile thing, and yet you're in a business that is ultimately transforming the entire core operations of how it works to be this hybrid of a digital and a physical experience.

, I've now experienced. I think all of the ways to interact with your company from a customer's perspective. I've gone into the stores, I've ordered online for pickup or I drive and I sit in a spot and I call them and say, I'm waiting outside. And I've also used delivery service, so I've, I've experienced it from all angles.

When you think about this transformation that you're going through. Irrespective of the reasons. It's partly natural consumer behavior shift. It's partly environmental of the things that are sort of forcing a faster behavior change. How do you think about, you know, the ultimate strategy? How do you, how do you know where to go first that you're going to have the biggest impact in the shortest amount of time.

Lauren: Yeah. I mean, look, people love our stores, right? There's a [00:13:00] reason, you know, I remember early days trying to sell them on what was clicking collect, which is now PC express. And people were just like, I just want to come in here like, this is my exercise. I love to touch, smell, and feel my fruit. I don't want someone else, you for me, I don't trust it.

I don't know. And I mean, I. Early days. I mean, I probably spent a year going into the stores at least three days a week selling the service to hear kind of people's reactions to it. , you know, I think our, like what grounds us is we have to do. It better than our customers would like, you know, the analogy that I love to use is a coffee shop.

I could choose to make my own coffee at home, ? But the coffee shop around the corner has the better fancier beans. They've got more vets, espresso machines, they've got, , the macadamia nut milk I love. It allows me to go for a stroll. There's all these things that I love about it and you know, we've got to make that experience.

Better than going to the store. We've got to make people feel like this is white glove. We've got to make them feel special at something to brag about and,  for us, [00:14:00] and I think really relevant right now because. Well, e-commerce is growing in that stat that you share. Corby, I don't know if I actually saw what percentage is like a click and collect experience because there are so many storefronts that are now going online, but they still have a physical space.

And I think, , e-commerce, just classic e-commerce shipping from a warehouse. That's really,  I don't want to say it's easy, but it's certainly less complex than, you know, a buy online pickup in store. Cause there are so many. Aspects of that that could either go really well or really poorly.

And when you achieve that operational excellence, like for us, you know, waited two minutes to get it. The colleague who brought it out was so sweet and funny and kind. I got everything I ordered. , they gave me a little treat on top of my order. Like that is not easy to do. And I think for us, we're constantly thinking , .

How do you turn a physical shopping cart into a digital shopping cart? And it's really about that. It's about making that experience just 10 X better.

Corby: So first of [00:15:00] all, macadamia nut milk. I mean, I've seen Allmond and cashew and oat and goat, but , I'm not sure. I've seen macadamia nuts.

Lauren: Yeah. I highly recommend I get it at Balzac's in Liberty village. They've got it. . It's something to write home about for sure. Give it a shot.

Corby: So here's one for you. How do you teach someone to pick kale?   And I ask that because as a user, as a customer who has tried the service of going in and. Picking up and or having it delivered. The line you said just is really resonating with me. You have to do it better than the customer, so absolutely. I make an okay coffee.

I'm not a barista. I go to Starbucks, I'll spend my $4 fine. I lose, they win, [00:16:00] they get my money. But I know how to pick a kale, and I have yet to experience the same quality of kale selection that's shown up in my house that I wasn't in charge of. And so I ask it in sort of a joking way, but in a serious way, because when I think about what you're trying to do, there's a lot more than the technology and the enablement and the parking spots and the dedicated phone numbers to call from outside and making sure all that works.

There's the real. Tactile element of knowing what box of strawberries, what kale, the freshness date on the milk, like how do you teach that and how much of that is a focus of the digital transformation of your business.

Lauren: So much of it is these operators acting like they truly are owners of that experience. Like we do an incredible job of F, you know, virtually every pickup location. You walk in there, there's a. The screen with a live feed of all their survey responses, , how they rated on freshness, how they rated on wait times.

We really give them access to the whole suite of [00:17:00] performance data, and that really helps drive their desire to do better. It's almost as if it's a competition, you know, I think that they really get behind this. It's, it's not an easy thing to teach. I think they get better at it by doing it so frequently.

So if you pick it nonstop and you know that your substitution rates of like, you order, let's say you ordered a macadamia nut milk and then we don't have it. And so we give you oatmeal and you know, that that was denied as a substitution when I can't pick it up. Oh, I, that's not a, that's not a good substitution for me.

And they get that feedback, , in many cases at a customer level to say, Hey, this customer won't accept that type of substitution. And so it really is about using data to help. Keep them informed to help empower them with performance metrics to push them along that way. , it's constantly evolving.

, we spend a lot of time in our stores to understand what metrics they actually need to get better as well. So it really is about arming them with all the information that they need to do that.

Corby: So do you ever envision a time where that [00:18:00] human element at the end of the supply chain, which is sort of the last touch before it goes to the customer, , do you ever envision a time that that might be automated? So I hear you saying things like seeing your survey results, reading it in real time.

That's a lot of effort. It's a lot of effort. And it takes a lot of skill to actually interpret what is coming back in terms of the feedback. I mean, the best text analytics in the world still makes mistakes. And so, . I guess the question is, do you ever envision the store being left out of the fulfillment?

The store is the store, to your point earlier, people just want to go in and they need their exercise. There's a social aspect or is the store from a grocery perspective, really key in maintaining that relationship with the end consumer.

Lauren: are you trying to get me in trouble with store calling that study? Uh, I mean, there's probably multiple. Thoughts on that. The first would be, you know, we are launching what we call micro fulfillment centers. These are automated picking facilities. , and I think that that's something that certainly we're moving , to be able to [00:19:00] scale.

You want to be able to pick faster, at least in those cases. Our first one just launched actually at a Superstore in, Toronto. , that one is inside a store. So you do need the store to. For the, uh, for the aspect of being close in proximity to the customer and not, , in some far off land, , you know, around some farm we actually want to be within five minutes of the customer, , to be able to get them their order fastest cause that's actually what they want.

, but I think that stores do play an integral role, , , for different aspects of the experience. We ran an experiment out West, , with the eight stores. , we started putting that. Timers on how long it takes to get the groceries out to the car. And on half of those stores, we said, if we don't get it out to in under five minutes, your order's free.

And on the other half, we didn't do that. We just put a timer. And what we actually saw was our net promoter score, , was worse on the stores where there was the guarantee of the free order because our colleagues. Weren't taking the [00:20:00] time to chat. They weren't taking the time to interact with the person, picking up their order, having some pleasantries, even giving them, , you know, a bottle of water or, , an Apple for their child's in the backseat.

, and so what we learned was. The human factor is a huge part of that experience and why people love it. They really do love that face to face. They love interacting with our colleagues. If you, you know, we, we just recently enabled videos on our survey responses and it just literally brings, , as cheesy as it sounds, it brings it to your, to your ride.

Because so much of thankfulness comes from the experience that they had with the colleagues. So I think from a picking perspective,  for myself. Speed, , assets. I certainly do believe that, you know, we will start to leverage a little bit more of that, but it will be inside the store, , in most cases for us as Loblaw assets.

. You know, we have a ton of assets, but I think the value of them has changed over the years. Or our stores used to be maybe valuable from a real estate perspective, land value. Now [00:21:00] they're valuable because they're the closest to the customer. It allows us to fulfill that last mile, cheapest, fastest. , and so that's, not going away anytime soon.

, , and I think we're happy about that.

Corby: So I'm still gonna have to live with the occasional wilty leaf on my kale. Is that what you're trying to tell me?

Lauren: Our order system and seeing what your next pickup is. I might, I might do the pick and the delivery for you.

Corby: So on that, here's a question. What's the secret sauce to getting a good pickup window?

Lauren: Yeah. Let's set your alarm clock for midnight.

Corby:   Midnight. See, and I've told people that it actually opens up. So there you go. Confirmed. Confirmed. Okay. Couple of quick questions. So you think back on all the great features, products, capabilities. What's your favorite thing that you've had built that you love to put your stamp on and say, that's the one.

Lauren: , my favorite thing would probably be our digital RX experience. So our online prescription refills and the global auto refill [00:22:00] feature within that, uh, and particularly caregiver. So we heard from so many customers that, , , needed, . Prescriptions on a regular basis, that it was actually someone else who managed that for them.

And so, you know, they perhaps weren't comfortable doing this digitally. , they perhaps weren't physically able to. And so to empower people who take care of their loved ones, , with access to the, , health resources that they need, that for me is, um, my favorite. It's got. , perfect. , Oh, set score virtually perfect.

I would say, , because we probably in that area of business spend the most time with customers. I mean, pre coven, we would go into their homes, sit side by side with them and watch how they use the product. I mean, it's just amazing cause you know, people really need that product. So,  definitely my favorite.

Corby: And what's one of the surprising outcomes that you never expected would have actually manifested , when building and launching great digital products? Has there been, , that surprise KPI or outcome that you're like, wow, we never even planned [00:23:00] for that, but look at how well 

it's doing. 

Lauren: That's probably the bill Han. I mean, honestly, when I joined, we were just getting ready to launch Joe fresh e-commerce. , and that felt like a huge feat. And, , you know, I think. Having reached that milestone and to be able to blow it out of the water hopefully this year. , I think that's really, that's really it.

But I think for us, you know, my, my leader always says to me, , , when you set an ambitious goal and then you meet it, it's like, okay, well what's next? And so we constantly try to think of like, what is that next great opportunity?  , whether that's a capability. Whether that's a new product, a new platform.

, for us, we're always thinking about how we build better, more so than what we built. , so we launched an experimentation practice last year. , a lot of, , work has been done around , , our data and how we actually leverage that to just build a better experience for our customers.

More personalized, more relevant. , to remove the clutter. I mean, so much of that is, is people and processes, but a ton of it is the technology [00:24:00] that's available to us, , with some of our partners. Pretty amazing stuff.

Corby: So in this journey to replace the shopping cart with the shopping cart, the physical with the digital. . There's probably a lot of learnings that you've had. Some you've explained already. I have a lot of listeners who have smaller businesses. They're owners.

They work in other organizations that aren't in the grocery and, , businesses that you are. So what are some  tips that you might give them around thinking about the journey of really transforming a physical business into a business that while still rooted in that retail experience, that physical, tactile experience of picking kale and all kinds of random nut milks this need.

Both based on environmental factors as well as natural customer behavior to move to this digital ecosystem. What are a few of the key tips that you would offer to other businesses in terms of things they need to think about as they make this transition.

Lauren: Yeah, I mean. For us, there was a [00:25:00] whole bunch of things that worked in our favor. I don't know how relevant these are to others, but you know, first of all, we had incredible buy in from leadership at all levels, very early on. I think having that allowed us to, you know. Design, um, a way of working, a culture that was conducive to allowing us to move quickly.

So I remember Jeremy, who was RSVP, , he was on the corporate strategy team at Loblaw and he was responsible for developing the tenure, e-commerce, , business plan. And at the end of that, our management board offered him. The role. And that's a pretty, you know, a scary thing for someone who develops a strategy in isolation to accept the challenge of delivering on what could be a total shot in the dark of a strategy.

And he accepted the role, but under, , two exceptions. The first one was that we'd be in a separate space downtown. And there was another, there was obviously a whole bunch of reasons for that. One was, you know, to be able to get some great talent that might not come out to, , , outside [00:26:00] GTA office that Loblaw operates in.

, but really it was so that we could move faster, that we could work around some of the, , don't quote me on this. I know it's. This is recorded, but screwing around some of the rules perhaps. And it just allowed us to really create a culture of like agility and that, that word is thrown around a lot.

I realized that, but it really wasn't part of the Loblaw culture.  it's very hard to move a $40 billion ship. , and so for us, being outside of that and, and you know, acting like we were kind of a startup really helped us achieve that. I think the second one for us was,  for Jeremy in particular was owning the P and L.

And what that allowed us to do was make smarter decisions, smarter choices. We didn't build products to innovate, , . , we build products with viability, , with customer value. , and we made sure that the investment choices we were making. Would actually deliver results. And that helped us, you know, that helped create some, space to do some of that fun innovation stuff that we didn't know would work or not, but it really did ground us in, [00:27:00] will this actually work?

 for us in particular, like LABA. Is great at so many things. They often say like they don't want to do it. They don't want to do anything to be second at it, right? They want to be first in, in many of those things. And so, , , for us, the realization that, sure, we created this kind of, this brick wall around us, but eventually.

, we couldn't have built a billion dollar business in 2019, if not for the tremendous brand recognition, customer base, , existing assets like stores and colleagues. Like, like I said, they play such a huge part in it. And so I think embracing. That versus trying to be outside of it is a huge factor if you're building or you're trying to transform from within.

I think for us, we try to refer to it as enhancing or influencing versus transforming because they're so amazing at , what they're great at. And I think for us, we try to be amazing what we're great at and we know that we couldn't have gotten here without them. One of our values, , is further together.

And that really is about, [00:28:00] you know, supporting the enterprise, supporting our customers. But, , you know, we, know that we're, more powerful if we take advantage of the assets that Loblaw has developed and vice versa, leverage that , to deliver more value to our customers.

Corby: So I've learned a lot of things from you today. , one that there's a macadamia nut milk to two, that I'm going to have to continue to pick my own kale. But I, I think most important, , something you just said, , you know, skirting the rules. , I like to say to my team, they're allowed to break anything but the law, as long as they don't intentionally hurt anybody along the way.

And that, ability to feel confidence in decision making and in truly being willing to try things simply because you fundamentally believe they're the right things for the customer is really, really critical. And I liked the way you said it. You know, build a culture that's conducive to moving quickly.

Get the buy in from leadership, act like a startup, own the P and L and ultimately don't build just to innovate and put a notch on the belt, you know, build [00:29:00] because it's viable. . And ultimately it's going to build and deliver on customer value. I think those are our really critical tips, irrespective of the vertical, irrespective of the size.

You could be a small store on the street corner and you could be a 40,000 person organization. And those things I truly believe will hold true. , so last question. , you have the opportunity to be the CEO of Loblaw for the day. , what's the next decision that you make.

Lauren: uh huh. I think loyalty, like the PC optimum program is one of our greatest assets, , to accelerate our growth, to deliver greater value to our customers, to really build loyalty versus, , just offering rewards. and I think, you know, and maybe it's already in the plan, but PC autumn has got to be, we've got to use it to generate, , more excitement for our customers.

, , it drives such. Great. Like, I mean, there's 19 million members. The population of [00:30:00] Canada is what, 32? , so we basically have,  , every maybe 18 plus year old. I don't know, but I think it's, it's such a huge asset and I think that we've only just scratched the surface. We merged two of the largest loyalty brands in the country about two and a half years ago.

, I think the past couple of years have really just been spent, you know. Kind of tweaking and tinkering and that experience, I think now is the time to take it to that next level. And that's probably where I'd spend the most amount of my time.

Wow. Exactly. More points equals more kale for ya.

Corby: I'm a, I'm a big fan of the program and a longtime member. So Lauren, I really appreciate you spending some time today with me and, , there's some really great points that I know people will, will be able to implement , in their businesses today. So again, thanks for spending the time and good luck on , 

Lauren: Thanks Corby.