EP40 - There is Always the Next and the Never Done with Meghan Nameth

So with me today is someone that I've met a number of times. I haven't had the pleasure of working with her directly, but when I think about the marketing landscape in Canada her name always comes up as, as a leader, as an innovator, as someone who has. Really helped to transform the landscape and help others grow in their career. And I'm lucky to have her today with me. Megan Namath, who was the former SVP of marketing for Loblaws Companies, which in Canada is a big deal leading all kinds of brands Shoppers Drug Mart, President's Choice, No name, Loblaws my favorite No Frills, where I go shopping every weekend. a plethora of brands within that portfolio. She's also had great experience formerly the CMO at Hudson's Bay Company executive positions across pwc, TD Bank, Mars, Canada, and p and g, which obviously is such a, a, a breeding ground for great marketers. Megan, welcome to the podcast today.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to happy to discuss everything marketing.

So you've had, you know, a really. Interesting and broad career. I find generally people kind of. Get focused on a particular vertical or a particular space. I've had a bit of a balance all over the place. I've done some different things. I admire that in a profile. And, when I look at yours, having touched a lot of different verticals and functions you're someone like me and I, really look up to that. Any particular path or reason for your path I should say, or was it just sort of happenstance that you were able to cross verticals and functions?

Oh, thank you. Yeah, and I agree. I love that part of my experience that I've been able to move around to different things. I think it's, I think there's a couple things I would say first, I love learning new things. I think I feel the most happy when I'm challenged and I'm a space that I'm sort of continually learning about a new industry or a. function. And I think that, that just makes me really inspired and passionate. And I think the second thing, as I sort of moved to different places, I realize that there's lot common between different functions or verticals. So, you know, There's lots of great things I loved about my role at Loblaws where, you know, when I learned in packaged goods was really applicable,

so in, in all of that background and experience, you know, we all, as we work, we always find things that maybe aren't exactly perfect. You know, things that we see in our jobs, in our functions that, particularly in the world of marketing where there's, there's just so much opportunity to test and try and create new experiences for customers. Maybe things in the organization aren't exactly perfect. It's a process. It's a product, it's an experience, a journey. Can you think back to something in your experience, really across any of the organizations that you've had an opportunity to work at, and think of something where you identified with your team, you know, one of those situations and maybe talk a little bit about the efforts And the ideation that you went through to make it better, because I find, you know, so many times we see these challenges and we just kind of skip over it and go to the next shiny object, but there's so much opportunity to, fix and take chances on solving some of our current problems. Any anything come to mind?

Absolutely. it's never perfect. And I think that's what makes these jobs amazing. I definitely always talk to my team. If, if we didn't have opportunities, what would we be? What would we be working on? And I think, I think there's a few things that come to mind. I mean, certainly. During the pandemic, we all had the great pivots. You know, trying to learn how to operate very differently with our team become much more agile in our responses. And that, that I think gave us this amazing sort of agility and resilience as, as organizations and so one of the biggest changes that I always see marketing teams go through is moving from sort of a linear waterfall approach to really thinking about an agile, more pod structure where you can experiment and test and learn and have all of the different functions sort of represented in. A more agile way so that you set clear objectives, you have different people from different skill sets working together in real time to make impact and experiment. And I think that's been one of the biggest changes in our industry is to really think differently From moving from a very linear, you know, I think about a campaign I brief that campaign. I see creative, I execute, I I measure to really thinking about what's my objective and how do I bring the right people together to in real time experiment and meet those objectives in a more agile basis. that's one of the biggest transitions that I've seen, and I think a lot of what we had to do during the pandemic really prepared organizations for that. We were all sort of living agile in the moment. And so now as we're moving groups to that, then most industries are going there. I think that's, that's one of the biggest things I see from a process and kinda tructure standpoint.

So one of the things that. I'm hearing more and more about is not just moving the way you described to this agile pod based test and learn model, but actually shifting the focus of what those pods are doing from getting the check mark of, Hey, we delivered or launched to more of an outcomes based, meaning, here's the objective. Let's shave 2% off that kpi or increase this KPI by 5%, or shorten the time by X or Y or z. Have you found that to be something that, you know, teams and our employers and our market is ready for? Have you had any experience with that fundamental shift?

Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think we're doing it in pocket, so certainly we're not moving full organizations to that model. But really thinking about setting that up where it matters and I totally agree with the outcomes. I think. I think actually Agile project management is, is really different than agile agile work structures where you're really thinking about you know, this holiday we really wanna achieve, to your point, you know, 10% growth in these areas. So, In real time, we're gonna all work together to collaborate on, you know, how is it going in, in real time, And optimize and change, creative change copywriting, change, you know, tactics as we see the consumer. And so I think the outcomes focus is inevitable and it requires some trust from the organization. They'll be able to allow a group of people to work somewhat autonomously to reach that objective. That's probably the biggest leap of faith that you know, we have to move people through because we're very used to, especially in senior executive positions, we're very used to seeing everything before it happens. And so releasing that control and trusting our teams. Have good judgment, make good decisions because they'll be focused on the end. Objective is, is a bit of elite, I think for organizations, but definitely one that is worth doing. Cause I think, you know, in any test we've done it produces better results faster.

I have this theory that many of our IT and technology partners are scared of outcomes based marketing campaign and ideation and agile work because I do believe that sometimes. The way to achieve the outcomes is as simple as, to your point, copy changes or a bit of a journey design change. It doesn't necessarily require, you know, hardcore IT development of new capabilities. And, and, and I think collectively as an organization, there may be a lot of efficiencies if we start to think that way, but maybe we're talking a little bit ahead of the market there. The.

I don't know actually. I think, I think we're realizing, and, and the research really supports this. Like I've seen research from Cantar, from Nielsen, from Google. It's 50% of effectiveness is delivered by creative. Re having convincing messaging, engaging, creative is, is really part of. The performance. So I think you're, you're, you're dead on that there's, there's, there's not only one way to achieve results. It's not always placement. It's not always delivery, it's, it's sometimes placement, delivery and message. And so I think we have to sort of wait. As sort of equally important in the cycle. And I think the, the other thing I would say is, you know, some work when I was in banking that we did was, you know, we build all these very robust predictive models, you know, very detailed and complicated models that would help you find the right customer or find the right message. And what we actually found that the most effective and had the most ROI was. So, you know, when you abandon a cart and someone you know follows up with you on an email, or if you are just, you know, naturally likely to look like someone who is doing, you know, looking to buy a house. Those kinda trigger based messaging, which are, are quite frankly, easy signals for data scientists to recognize. Those are actually the highest roi. And so I think sometimes we, we leap forward to a very complex IT based solution when we could, we still more yield to get sort I basic tactic.

You literally just said something I say to my team all the time, and I frame it a little differently, but it's the exact same thought process, which is we often jump to this AI ml advanced analytics data driven ecosystem, and we forget the most basic if this then.

Yes, exactly.

Fully aligned, and I'm, I'm, I'm sitting here smiling, thinking, you know, Wow, like someone else says the exact same thing. And I, and I truly believe it. I, I think about triggers. I think about, you know, if you do this, what's the most logical thing you're gonna do next? And you know, 80% of the time you're going to find the right next behavior. So super important point and, and, and thank you for reinforcing that. The, the flip side to the whole thing is it, It's it's easy to look for opportunity. When there's a challenge or a gap, it's maybe a little harder to say, Well, things are actually going okay, we're hitting our objectives, we're hitting our targets. People are happy, the sales results are good. How do you as a leader, Think about continuous improvement and, and being okay to tell your team, you know, as I say, we can always make things better. And can you think of an opportunity where, hey, you, you looked across your team, you looked across your organization, you said, you know, this is generally working, but I think we should take the time to still innovate and ideate and, and really strive for the next goal, the b ag or, or making it better. Anything come to.

You know, almost every business I've worked in, to be honest, because complacency is sort of the enemy of progress. You, you can only and, and people should celebrate success. I think that's maybe what holds us back from sometimes continual improvement is that we fear that if we say we need to do more, that we will diminish the progress we've made and be the excellent results. And so I think it has to come hand in hand that we. This is amazing. We have the number one brand we leading market share, whatever the whatever happens to be true and to keep that momentum going. There's always the next and the never done. And so I think. I think it is about just driving that balance between we can celebrate the success and how great it's today and still strive for a bigger future. And I think you know, I've been on some amazing brands. I think back to my day that proc gamble, you know, I was on this massive run of success. Pet food. They moved their business from being pet specialty to being much more a wider distribution. And so they were riding on these great results and I think was an element of we can continue this doing very much. And it wasn't too long before the competition caught. And, and that's always what happens. As soon as, as soon as you, as a business are feeling that wave of success, you're just not alone in the market. There's always someone. Also innovating and thinking, and those people who haven't been as successful are striving for. Piece of growth. And so I think we have to think about this as as markets are constantly evolving and we must stay with that evolution and always be thinking about what's the next important milestone for the consumer, What's the next important innovation we can bring that makes their life better, makes it easier, more convenient, whatever their value proposition happens to be. I think. Really critical to set our team's eyes on. We've done amazing. And to keep being amazing, we must continually innovate. And I think, I think setting that stage of innovation isn't something we do and then we're finished. Innovation is kinda a continual journey. Cause that's essence of whatever business you happen to be. But that, I, I agree with you. I think, I think often we, we shy away from that cause we don't wanna take away from the success, but it's, it's just absolutely critical to keep everyone focused on, on setting, continually setting new moonshots to things differently.

So if innovation is a continual journey and you think about all of the d. Verticals and brands that you've had an opportunity to, you know, to help lead and evolve. What do you see coming down the pipe? You know, the average marketer might want to just be aware of or think of where do you see, you know, industry agnostic? Where do you see things going? I mean, we talked a little bit about, data versus the basics. You talk a little about, agile pod versus waterfall and even, outcomes versus you know, check mark delivery of a campaign. But, but what's next?

Yeah, I think, I think we all have to take stock of the fundamental shift that younger consumers have gone through. The pandemic has fundamentally changed how people relate to each other. How they communicate with each other, how we consume content, where we shop, what we're willing to, to do. There's a, there's I think, a very deep and fundamental shift that as that generation of consumers grows up and depending what business you're in, that'll have a or lagging impact, it, it's gonna be really critical that we as marketers learn what, how those consumers are behaving and consuming. Cause I think it's gonna be very fundamentally d. Just based on their experiences in the pandemic. And then I think that might be a bit longer term. I think near term we know consumers are gonna have a tough time in the next couple years. There is going to be a lot of stress. On people's wallets from inflation, from interest rates, from potentially conditions, and I think consumers will be, we know this, that they are seeking value in. In In very robust ways. So whether it's searching for a lowest price, whether they're searching for a retailer that they can trust, will give them a lower price, whether they're looking for products that last longer or up cycling and recycling and sustainability. And I think all of that is leading to a very different sort of product and experience environment. And then lastly, I think it's, it's really this omnichannel view, and we've been talking about omnichannel. I don't know, at least the last five years, if not longer. I forever just like we've been talking about personalization and work within face, but I think this idea of omnichannel and personalization and the, of cookies, I mean, it's, it's a bit of a circular conversation. But I think, I think fundamentally consumers are living online. They're living there, there's such a blurring between offline and online that I think. The retailer or the brands that will will win in the future are those that embrace that blurring very, very deliberately, that they really move the consumer across channels without you seamlessly. And I think we've been talking about it for a long time, and I think we're gonna start to see behavior shift to those to do that even more, even more quickly.

Yeah, I think all the things you said are relevant and, and yes, some of these things just will never go away and to the point. Constant evolution and consistent improvement. You know, the notion of personalization, the notion of integrated omnichannel experiences, to your point, they have been around, they just get better. And, and there's no silver bullet. There's no magic platform that even though they all promise they can solve it, it, it's complicated. And I think as long as we, as marketers and executives continue to just fight the fight and make, incremental improvements hopefully one day we achieve. Something that looks better than today and to the conversation. I mean, it's just, it's perpetual, right? Innovate. I ideate. Make it a little better. Rinse,

Yeah, exactly. And I think personalization for me is a really interesting cause as we started down, the journey personalization across many different places I've worked, there became this idea that the only thing that mattered was one to one. And then you couldn't get to one to one. You kind of weren't doing personalization. But I, I really think we're starting to evolve to a place where all of us really understand that it's, there are some things where it's important to be one to one. Like, I would like my bank statement to be personalized. I would like, you know, lots of different communication really is important that personal. And then some communication matters that it's targeted, that it's relevant to me, but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be me as the individual. And so I think we, we saw segmentation or targeting as a bit of a dirty word for a while. I think we're, we're now really, you know, coming back full circle and, and reengaging on this idea that there's several layers of relevant messaging that leads you to personalization versus. Feeling that you, you can't, that all of them are bad and only one to one is what matters. And I think that's, that's a real, that's a real shift for, for the industry.

You use my other favorite word, which is relevance over necessarily personalization. And, and I too would like my bank statement personalized, especially if the amount of money were to go up. But that's a little outta my control. Well listen, Megan this was really insightful. I'm, I'm actually happy, surprised and shocked that there's someone who uses so many of the same terms, phrases and thoughts as I do. And and I'm sitting here smiling knowing that there are many of us who are aligned in market. So, I just wanna thank you for being with me again, Megan Namath the former SVP of marketing for Loblaw's Company former CMO of Hudson's Bay Company. And again, having had executive opportunities across multiple verticals and brands. Really appreciate your insights and, and thank you so much for spending some time with me.

Thank you. It was great. Have a great day.

you.